Fantaverse Society of Film Critics Awards 2008

geezer9687 wrote:You really consider Heath Ledger to be in a leading role? I don't see how.

seriously? i guarantee that The Joker has more lines of dialogue than Batman... probably more screentime, too

edit: to elaborate, IMO the Joker is CLEARLY the star of the Dark Knight.. people are hesitant to say that, simply because he's the antagonist... but that's like saying Lucifer isn't the star of Paradise Lost just because he's the bad guy

The Wall-E and EVE nominations are a joke right? I mean the movie might be great, but they are not actors. They are digital characters created by artists. They technically can't "act."

and NSpan, do you mean just Batman, or Batman and Bruce Wayne combined? I would definitely think combined Batman/Wayne has him beat.

Also, I think that Bale is the lead actor because the film is about him. It is a film about Batman, not a film about the Joker. Just because the Joker's part was better does not mean he is the lead actor. The Plot follows Batman a lot more closely than it does the Joker.

Interesting lists. There are some differences in my breakthrough category then in the ones posted. I wonder what the consensus will be . . .

geezer9687 wrote:and NSpan, do you mean just Batman, or Batman and Bruce Wayne combined? I would definitely think combined Batman/Wayne has him beat.

either way, how is he not a "lead"? i mean, if it were a buddy-cop movie, wouldn't both of the protagonists be "lead roles"? the only difference i see is that The Joker is a bad guy

is there a rule that there is only one lead character per film?

Daniel Day Lewis got nominated twice for playing an antagonist (Gangs of New York and There Will Be Blood).. Denzel Washing got nominated as an antagonist for Training Day (and won! lol).. De Niro in Cape Fear.. Anthony Hopkins in Silence of the Lambs..

tangentially: Robin Williams got the nom for The Fisher King.. Dustin Hoffman for Rainman AND Midnight Cowboy..

what separates Heath's role as the Joker from the precedent set by all these others?

The Joker's character only exists to antagonize the lead, to give him something to do. Like I said, the movie is about Batman, not about his nemesis. I guess its tough to explain. It doesn't really matter to me, I just don't want the vote to be split up, I mean an actor can't win best actor and best supporting actor for one role, and its a guarantee he gets nominated for supporting. I just feel like there should be a definition on whether an actor is a lead or a supporting. What do you consider the 5 main actors in Tropic Thunder to be?

geezer9687 wrote:The Joker's character only exists to antagonize the lead, to give him something to do. Like I said, the movie is about Batman, not about his nemesis. I guess its tough to explain.

i dunno about that.. i actually think Batman is almost secondary to the Joker.. Batman only acts in RESPONSE to the Joker.. The Joker is the one making all the moves.. in my mind, it's his story

geezer9687 wrote:What do you consider the 5 main actors in Tropic Thunder to be?

not sure if this is relevant to our conversation, but: Ben Stiller, Nick Nolte, Jay Bruchel, Danny McBride, and Matthew McConaughey

geezer9687 wrote:The Wall-E and EVE nominations are a joke right? I mean the movie might be great, but they are not actors. They are digital characters created by artists. They technically can't "act."

No, I am serious. They are probably the most human film characters seen in years. Sure they may not be human but pitting Wall-E against say, today's best performances, you've got one of the best acting roles in the history of cinema. Right up there with The Joker and Daniel Plainview. Plus, Wall-E showed that you can still have great cinematic heroes.




As for Tropic Thunder, I'd go in this order:

Robert Downey Jr. (the likeable one, the film's Ash Williams/Jack Burton)
Ben Stiller (the egomaniac action star)
Jack Black (the comic relief)
Tom Cruise (the film's Emperor Palpatine)
Jay Barachuel (the fresh blood)

Sorry, I get how that could have been misconstrued. I meant the 5 main "actors" in "Tropic Thunder." As in the characters playing actors. Ben Stiller, RDJ, Jack Black.... what do you consider them to be? Leading or Supporting?

And I'm not saying they aren't great characters Buscemi, but they are not actors. They are not people. They are not real. They do not "act." They are the characters. They only exist to be the characters. When Jack Nicholson goes home, he is Jack Nicholson, not the character he is playing. Wall-E is a character created for the movie, who's actions are digitally created. He has no pulse, he does no breathe. He does whatever the art director and artists tell him to do. This is not acting, its drawing. If you want to nominate the art director or the person who does the voice, fine. But to nominate the character for best actor makes a mockery out of the acting profession.

In order of the main characters:

1.Kirk (the leader)
2.Tugg (the prima donna)
3.Fatts (the comic relief)
4.Les (the franchise)
5.whatever Jay Barachuel's character was (the young blood)

Meanwhile if you consider Megan Fox (a piece of cardboard with a pretty face) an actress, then I should be allowed to consider Wall-E (a work of metal who thinks he's human) an actor. Fox may be real but she doesn't have the emotion, appeal, heart or talent that Wall-E does.

Meanwhile, can I nominate Marley for Best Supporting Actor?

geezer9687 wrote:Sorry, I get how that could have been misconstrued. I meant the 5 main "actors" in "Tropic Thunder." As in the characters playing actors. Ben Stiller, RDJ, Jack Black.... what do you consider them to be? Leading or Supporting?

oh, i see what you're saying.. well, it's much more an ensemble piece than the Dark Knight--so i don't think it's perfectly comparable... if i had to pick ONE, i'd actually say that Jay Barachuel is THE lead character (okay, maybe Ben Stiller).. but i'd be more comfortable saying that the film has several leads

but we're getting sidetracked here.. look back at my response about Oscar nomination precedents set by previous years--i honestly don't think putting The Joker as a "lead role" would be an exception

I would say that the Joker is one of the main characters also. If not the main character, at least second. Does that make him a supporting character?

A few responses to those who have listed theirs so far:

NSpan, do you, or does anyone else for that matter, have any idea how we are judging this in terms of time periods. I mean, would The Orphange be classified as the past year, as technically it was released in 2007 (although most didn't see it till last year [myself included]). Does the poll have any reference to the Academy's time frames? i.e would a movie like Cloverfield have been included in last years awards rather than this year's? Just wanna clarify what can be included and what can't.

Secondly, Karen Allen? I mean, really? Best Supporting Actress? I thought her performance in Indiana Jones and The Whatever was one of THE most cardboard and forced performances I have seen in the last few years. She made Megan Fox appear talented! Also, I suppose it's possible, but I can't really see how a movie which you put it's two main stars in the Best Actor categories can also appear in your worst movie lists... Same applies to Tim Roth for Funny Games.

Then onto Wall-E. Boussh, I understand where you are coming from, and I do see how you can classify Wall-E as a very human character, but this is not the best character category. You are voting for the best ACTOR. Wall-E is not an actor, he is a character. A very well created and realised character with very human qualities, but in the end he is not an actor.

Now onto The Joker. The Joker is a supporting actor. Yes, in many movies there are multiple leads, but in The Dark Knight, he is a supporting character. He is a very important character, but Batman is still the lead. The focus of the movie is still Batman. The story arcs and finishes with the focus on Batman's role with Gotham. His character is the most important character in the movie.

NSpan wrote:

geezer9687 wrote:You really consider Heath Ledger to be in a leading role? I don't see how.

seriously? i guarantee that The Joker has more lines of dialogue than Batman... probably more screentime, too

edit: to elaborate, IMO the Joker is CLEARLY the star of the Dark Knight.. people are hesitant to say that, simply because he's the antagonist... but that's like saying Lucifer isn't the star of Paradise Lost just because he's the bad guy

I would argue that Joker is not a lead character in TDK for the very reason that we're not allowed into his inner life. For me, that's very important for a "lead" actor/actress. In Paradise Lost, all we get is the inner working of Lucifer's mind, so he is clearly the "lead", regardless of morality. Joker is a mystery, while in TDK we're always aware of what Wayne is going through (his relationship with whatshername, the idea of hanging up his wings, etc), whereas what someone else said, Joker is merely there as a symbol of what Wayne is trying to fight. I'd compare Joker to Chigurh in No Country.

many issues to solve

First of all The Orphanage was released 28 December, 2007. The academy time frame is from midnight at the start of January 1 to midnight at the end of December 31, therefore The Orphanage is not available.

Now the Wall-E situation. I cannot accept Wall-E or EVE as nominations for Best Actor or Actress, but I can accept Ben Burtt and Elissa Knight, the voices of the aforementioned characters in those categories.

Finally the Joker:
"A supporting actor performs roles in a play or movie other than that of protagonist. These roles range from bit parts to secondary leads"

Now the important thing to remember this is a Batman Movie without Batman/Bruce Wayne there would be no movie. However that said if you wish to nominate Heath in a leading role I will accept that.

Thanks Shaan, that cleared a lot of things up for me. Now I just have to eliminate The Orphanage from a lot of my categories.....

silversurfer19 wrote:Secondly, Karen Allen? I mean, really? Best Supporting Actress? I thought her performance in Indiana Jones and The Whatever was one of THE most cardboard and forced performances I have seen in the last few years. She made Megan Fox appear talented! Also, I suppose it's possible, but I can't really see how a movie which you put it's two main stars in the Best Actor categories can also appear in your worst movie lists... Same applies to Tim Roth for Funny Games.

okay, i admit that Karen Allen will almost definitely be bumped once i finish the list (though i do love the character of Marion Ravenwood).. but I'm glad my Funny Games actor/actress noms have already started a little controversy.. yes, I have Funny Games all over my WORST OF '08 list--and i strongly believe it deserves to be there.. however, the atrocity of Funny Games is in no way related to the performances of Tim Roth or Naomi Watts.. i have no criticisms concerning their performances at all.. it isn't their fault that the script takes a hard left turn toward crapville in the final act.. it's unfortunate that so many great roles have been overshadowed by the awful movies they're featured in.. but, that's why we have separate categories for acting and directing and screenwriting, etc.... right?

silversurfer19 wrote:Now onto The Joker. The Joker is a supporting actor. Yes, in many movies there are multiple leads, but in The Dark Knight, he is a supporting character. He is a very important character, but Batman is still the lead. The focus of the movie is still Batman. The story arcs and finishes with the focus on Batman's role with Gotham. His character is the most important character in the movie.

Looks like I already got Shaan's go-ahead, but for those of you still hung up on the Joker debate--allow me to quote Wikipedia (the source of ALL THINGS true):

A leading actor, leading actress, or simply lead, plays the role of the protagonist in a film or play. The word lead may also refer to the largest role in the piece and leading actor may refer to a person who typically plays such parts or an actor with a respected body of work. Some actors are typecast as leads, but most play the lead in some performances and supporting or character roles in others.

Sometimes there is more than one significant leading role in a dramatic piece, and the actors are said to play co-leads; a large supporting role may be considered a secondary lead. Award nominations for acting often reflect such ambiguities. Thus, sometimes two actors in the same performance piece are nominated for Best Actor or Best Actress -- categories traditionally reserved for leads. For example, in 1935 Clark Gable, Charles Laughton and Franchot Tone were each nominated for the Best Actor Academy Award for Mutiny on the Bounty. There can even be controversy over whether a particular performance should be nominated in the Best Actor/Actress or Best Supporting Actor/Actress category.

A title role often is not necessarily the lead.

So it seems there's room for interpretation. allow me to repost this list of parallel situations from past Oscar ceremonies.. these are nominations that, i believe, have set a precedent to allow the Joker to be considered a Lead Role..

Best Lead Actor (antagonists)
Daniel Day Lewis - Gangs of New York (opposite Leonardo DiCaprio)
Denzel Washington - Training Day (opposite Ethan Hawke)
Robert DeNiro - Cape Fear (opposite Nick Nolte)
Anthony Hopkins - Silence of the Lambs (opposite Jodie Foster)--his role is 16 minutes long, aka 13% of the film.
Michael Douglas - Wall Street (opposite Charlie Sheen)

Best Lead Actor (co-leads)
Robin Williams - The Fisher King (second to Jeff Bridges)
Dustin Hoffman - Rainman (second to Tom Cruise)
Dustin Hoffman - Midnight Cowboy (second to Jon Voight)
Johnny Depp - Pirates of the Caribbean (second to that elf)

numbersix_99 wrote:I would argue that Joker is not a lead character in TDK for the very reason that we're not allowed into his inner life. For me, that's very important for a "lead" actor/actress. In Paradise Lost, all we get is the inner working of Lucifer's mind, so he is clearly the "lead", regardless of morality. Joker is a mystery

Lucifer isn't even presented as the protagonist.. Adam and Jesus get about as much "screentime"--it's just that Lucifer is so damn interesting! the whole thing is, basically, Adam's story (who is the intended protagonist).. it's just that he comes off a bit boring compared to lucifer, so that's the character people focus on.. (don't get me started on the Son of God character).. as for the "mystery" of The Joker, did we get any closer to being inside Hannibal Lector's head?


edit: it breaks my heart that i gotta drop The Orphanage from my nomination list.. but, yeah, it appears it's technically a 2007 movie

Ok, I see your point NSpan, and I guess you could go ahead and list Joker in the best actor category. But to honest, it seems it will probably be a wasted vote, as I doubt many of us on here will put him in the same category, not enough to get him nominated anyway.

And yes, Marion Ravenwood the character was a great , especially from Raiders, but as we have already discussed regarding Wall-E, the character is not what is being nominated here, its the actor. And Karen Allen acting was awful.

I guess I can see how decent acting can co-habit with a bad film, but it really is a rarity. I think if a movie is bad, the acting must go a long way to making it so. Yes, the script is important, but the acting is a major slice of how I rate a movie, and if the acting is good, I usually think a movie must at least be half decent, enough to watch the film anyway.

NSpan wrote:

Lucifer isn't even presented as the protagonist.. Adam and Jesus get about as much "screentime"--it's just that Lucifer is so damn interesting! the whole thing is, basically, Adam's story (who is the intended protagonist).. it's just that he comes off a bit boring compared to lucifer, so that's the character people focus on.. (don't get me started on the Son of God character).. as for the "mystery" of The Joker, did we get any closer to being inside Hannibal Lector's head?

Well firstly, I don't see Hannibal Lector as a lead role in silence of the Lambs, not. But you're right, there is scope for debate and personal opinion on what is a lead or not. So I do accept your claim that Joker is a lead role. I personally don't think so, but I guess it's due to my slant on what defines a lead.

are you sure Lucifer gets as much time in PL than Adam- I thought Adam was just a "good", morality speaking, device in order to explore Lucifer. I have some vague memory of the last dozen or so pages not focusing on Lucifer, but I could be wrong.

I've been trying to put my list together and I'm ashamed to admit that I haven't seen a single foreign language film that got released last year yet. I even went on the imdb and went searching because I did watch a lot of foreign films last year. The problem is that none of them were new, *LOL* Anyone else have the same problem or are you all just more multicultural than I am?

What about Mongol? That was a really good one. And it had a wide DVD release.

Good idea Buscemi. I'll have to hit the video store this afternoon and see what's available. Theatrically, 'Waltz With Bashir' was here for one week. Same deal for 'Let The Right One In.' I of course missed them both.

Same here, the only foreign movie I have seen is Mongol. I live in the middle of nowhere and the closest movie theaters usually do not play foreign films which is why I am really happy I just got netflix.

I see no point in nominating films that don't truly deserve it, so most of my categories have fewer than five entries, and some will be left totally blank.

Best Picture
WALL-E
In Bruges

Best Director
Andrew Stanton (WALL-E)

Best Actor
Brendan Gleeson (In Bruges)
Colin Farrell (In Bruges)

Best Actress
Angelina Jolie (Changeling)

Best Supporting Actor
Heath Ledger (Dark Knight)

Justin Butler Harner (Changeling)

Best Supporting Actress
Penelope Cruz (Vicky Christina Barcelona)

Best Screenplay
WALL-E

I know some people don't think of WALL-E as a great screenplay, but there's more to a great script than snappy dialogue and a twist ending. The decision to make WALL-E a nearly silent film for the first hour was a bold and brilliant choice, and something that occurred during the writing stage, so that's why it's my choice for best screenplay.

If I had seen more of the Oscar bait films my choices for the acting categories probably would have been different, but I've working the graveyard shift for the last several months so I rarely get out to the theatres. Angelina Jolie wasn't that great, but when reviewing the movies I'd seen this year, her's was the only female lead that really stood out.

Here us the list I sent to SuperShaan!

Best Picture
Slumdog Millionaire
The Dark Knight
Curious Case of Benjamin Button
Revolutionary Road
The Wrestler

Best Director
Christopher Nolan - The Dark Knight
Steven Soderberg - Che
David Fincher - Curious Case of Benjamin Button
Danny Boyle - Slumdog Millionare
Darren Afronosky - The Wrestler

Best Actor in a Leading Role
Leonardo DiCaprio - Revolutionary Road
Mickey Rourke - The Wrestler
Sean Penn - Milk
Frank Langella - Frost/Nixon
Benicio Del Toro - Che


Best Actress in a Leading Role
Kate Winslet - Revolutionary Road
Meryl Streep - Doubt
Anne Hathaway - Rachel Getting Married
Cate Blanchett - Curious Case of Benjamin Button

Best Actor in a Supporting Role
Michael Shannon - Revolutionary Road
Heath Ledger - The Dark Knight
Robert Downey Jr. - Tropic Thunder
Josh Brolin - Milk
Phillip Seymour Hoffman - Doubt

Best Actress in a Supporting
Viola Davis - Doubt
Amy Adams - Doubt
Rosemarie Dewitt - Rachel Getting Married
Marisa Tomei - The Wrestler
Debra Winger - Rachel Getting Married


Best Foreign Language Film
The Band's Visit
City of Men
Priceless
OSS 117
Reprise

Best Cast
Doubt
Rachel Getting Married
Tropic Thunder
Slumdog Millionaire
The Dark Knight

Best Screenplay
The Fall
Slumdog Millionaire
The Dark Knight
Curious Case of Benjamin Button
Che

Breakthrough Performance
Dev Patel - Slumdog Millionaire
Frieda Pinto - Slumdog Millionaire
Odette Yousman - Cloverfield
Kristen Bell - Forgetting Sarah Marshall
Catinca Untaru - The Fall

JackO wrote:Steven Soderberg - Che

sorry if i missed this in another thread--but did you see the whole thing or just "Part One"?